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	<title>Comments on: M&#038;C Question: Baptism and Dialogue</title>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-729</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-729</guid>
		<description>Rich,

You have quoted one of my favorite scriptures, particularly verse 21.  I would also have hard time disagreeing with much of what you have said.  I do not doubt that you feel the spirit of Christ.

All I can say it that it is difficult for you to understand the way we appreciate the very same principles you have testified of, without making an extensive, full-hearted investigation into the same.  Such an investigation is difficult to capture over a written medium.  Ultimately the testimony only comes by the Spirit through an experiment upon the word, and not by man's intellect alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich,</p>
<p>You have quoted one of my favorite scriptures, particularly verse 21.  I would also have hard time disagreeing with much of what you have said.  I do not doubt that you feel the spirit of Christ.</p>
<p>All I can say it that it is difficult for you to understand the way we appreciate the very same principles you have testified of, without making an extensive, full-hearted investigation into the same.  Such an investigation is difficult to capture over a written medium.  Ultimately the testimony only comes by the Spirit through an experiment upon the word, and not by man&#8217;s intellect alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Horrell</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Horrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-721</guid>
		<description>Phil. 3:17-21  Note# Colossians 1:15-29  

17 
Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. 
18 
For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ. 
19 
Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their "shame." Their minds are occupied with earthly things. 
20 
But our citizenship  is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. 
(Christians constitute a colony of heaven, as Philippi was a colonia of Rome. The hope Paul expresses involves the final coming of Christ, not a status already attained.)
21 
He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil. 3:17-21  Note# <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/col/1/15-29#15" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Colossians 1:15-29">Colossians 1:15-29</a>  </p>
<p>17<br />
Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.<br />
18<br />
For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.<br />
19<br />
Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their &#8220;shame.&#8221; Their minds are occupied with earthly things.<br />
20<br />
But our citizenship  is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.<br />
(Christians constitute a colony of heaven, as Philippi was a colonia of Rome. The hope Paul expresses involves the final coming of Christ, not a status already attained.)<br />
21<br />
He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Horrell</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-720</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Horrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-720</guid>
		<description>Mark Butler Says: 
July 25th, 2006 at 10:59 am 
Rich H.,
Your question is sufficiently open ended that there it is difficult to properly address it here.

I understand Mark,  let me put it this way. My Creator is God, God created me to find him and to love Him the way the Son always has. I get to be included into the Trinity as a created being. To me this is a gift that is the biggest miracle that ever could exist, the miracle of existence itself, and to be loved by God.  Those that I have loved because of God will be with me in heaven praising God forever and without end. The closest you will ever get to being in heaven here is at the foot of the cross, the daily Mass.

What I speak of has been found in my heart, it is the revelation that has been given to me. I do not have to find it in the Bible as I know it is there. I would point to all of Johnâ€™s gospel as he had the same revelations as I. This revelation is nothing new, the Apostles had it as well, all the Saints and angels who give praise to God. By the Church proclaiming His death and resurrection throughout time this soul has been gifted this revelation just as it has occurred over and over again each day, each year since Pentecost by way of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Mass, the sign given in John chapter 6.  Saint Augustine sums it up well here: 

When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.
And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source.  I found that humility is a supernatural virtue whereby one is enabled to make a true and just estimate of himself and is inclined to hold himself and his accomplishments in contempt in recognition that all good arises from God alone. It is said "dependence on God gives wings to prayer"  I term it a relinquishment of "self-will, self-love, and self-interests." It is positive in not seeking honors and esteem of others, and self-condemning because man knows evil is his own doing. Humility is exercised toward God and neighbors: toward God who as the Creator gives man whatever he possesses, and toward one's neighbors by recognizing their worth in the eye's of God. This virtue is the opposite of pride and self progression, which is the root of all evil; hence humility is basic to the practice of all the virtues. It is fundamental of prayer, notably the prayer of simplicity, for Christ rewarded the Syro-phoenician women for her humility (Mk 7:26-30); it is likewise to be found in Christ's example (Phil 2:1-11)  ..........

And once moreâ€¦There will true Glory be, where no one will be praised by mistake or flattery; true honor will not be refused to the worthy, nor granted to the unworthy; likewise, no one unworthy will pretend to be worthy, where only those who are worthy will be admitted. Their true peace will reign, where no one will experience opposition either from self or others. God himself will be virtue's reward; he gives virtue and has promised to give "Himself" as the best and greatest reward that could existâ€¦"I shall be their God and they will be my peopleâ€¦" This is also the meaning of the Apostle's words: "So that God may be all in all." God himself will be the goal of our desires; we shall contemplate him without end, love him without end, and praise him without weariness. This gift, this state, this act, like eternal life itself, will assuredly be common in all...  
So my Lord, you are not pleased with someone simply because that person is knowledgeable. In fact, it would be possible for one to know everything there is to know in the whole wide world, except for knowing you, and consequently know nothing. Just as another person could live in blissful ignorance of the great sum of human knowledge, but know you, and be both happy and content. After all, who is better placed - the person who owns a tree and gives You thanks for all the good things it provides; or the one who owns a similar tree and knows its weight and dimensions down to the least leaf, but does not realize that You are its sole Creator and that it is through You that he or she has use of it? In essence, the latter person is ignorant, though full of facts, and the former person wise, though bit short on details. 
So in general we can say that the most important knowledge is knowledge of You, O Lord."...all from St. Augustine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Butler Says:<br />
July 25th, 2006 at 10:59 am<br />
Rich H.,<br />
Your question is sufficiently open ended that there it is difficult to properly address it here.</p>
<p>I understand Mark,  let me put it this way. My Creator is God, God created me to find him and to love Him the way the Son always has. I get to be included into the Trinity as a created being. To me this is a gift that is the biggest miracle that ever could exist, the miracle of existence itself, and to be loved by God.  Those that I have loved because of God will be with me in heaven praising God forever and without end. The closest you will ever get to being in heaven here is at the foot of the cross, the daily Mass.</p>
<p>What I speak of has been found in my heart, it is the revelation that has been given to me. I do not have to find it in the Bible as I know it is there. I would point to all of Johnâ€™s gospel as he had the same revelations as I. This revelation is nothing new, the Apostles had it as well, all the Saints and angels who give praise to God. By the Church proclaiming His death and resurrection throughout time this soul has been gifted this revelation just as it has occurred over and over again each day, each year since Pentecost by way of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Mass, the sign given in John chapter 6.  Saint Augustine sums it up well here: </p>
<p>When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.<br />
And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source.  I found that humility is a supernatural virtue whereby one is enabled to make a true and just estimate of himself and is inclined to hold himself and his accomplishments in contempt in recognition that all good arises from God alone. It is said &#8220;dependence on God gives wings to prayer&#8221;  I term it a relinquishment of &#8220;self-will, self-love, and self-interests.&#8221; It is positive in not seeking honors and esteem of others, and self-condemning because man knows evil is his own doing. Humility is exercised toward God and neighbors: toward God who as the Creator gives man whatever he possesses, and toward one&#8217;s neighbors by recognizing their worth in the eye&#8217;s of God. This virtue is the opposite of pride and self progression, which is the root of all evil; hence humility is basic to the practice of all the virtues. It is fundamental of prayer, notably the prayer of simplicity, for Christ rewarded the Syro-phoenician women for her humility (Mk 7:26-30); it is likewise to be found in Christ&#8217;s example (Phil 2:1-11)  &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>And once moreâ€¦There will true Glory be, where no one will be praised by mistake or flattery; true honor will not be refused to the worthy, nor granted to the unworthy; likewise, no one unworthy will pretend to be worthy, where only those who are worthy will be admitted. Their true peace will reign, where no one will experience opposition either from self or others. God himself will be virtue&#8217;s reward; he gives virtue and has promised to give &#8220;Himself&#8221; as the best and greatest reward that could existâ€¦&#8221;I shall be their God and they will be my peopleâ€¦&#8221; This is also the meaning of the Apostle&#8217;s words: &#8220;So that God may be all in all.&#8221; God himself will be the goal of our desires; we shall contemplate him without end, love him without end, and praise him without weariness. This gift, this state, this act, like eternal life itself, will assuredly be common in all&#8230;<br />
So my Lord, you are not pleased with someone simply because that person is knowledgeable. In fact, it would be possible for one to know everything there is to know in the whole wide world, except for knowing you, and consequently know nothing. Just as another person could live in blissful ignorance of the great sum of human knowledge, but know you, and be both happy and content. After all, who is better placed - the person who owns a tree and gives You thanks for all the good things it provides; or the one who owns a similar tree and knows its weight and dimensions down to the least leaf, but does not realize that You are its sole Creator and that it is through You that he or she has use of it? In essence, the latter person is ignorant, though full of facts, and the former person wise, though bit short on details.<br />
So in general we can say that the most important knowledge is knowledge of You, O Lord.&#8221;&#8230;all from St. Augustine</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Haas</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-705</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Haas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-705</guid>
		<description>For the LDS site, you'll need either "Philip." or "Philem."

But yeah, that's nifty.  Maybe I can find or write one for my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the LDS site, you&#8217;ll need either &#8220;Philip.&#8221; or &#8220;Philem.&#8221;</p>
<p>But yeah, that&#8217;s nifty.  Maybe I can find or write one for my blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-704</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-704</guid>
		<description>Phil. 3:20-21</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil. 3:20-21</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/comment-page-1/#comment-703</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonandcatholic.org/2006/07/17/mc-question-baptism-and-dialogue/#comment-703</guid>
		<description>That is Phil 3:20-21 not Col 3:20-21, by the way.  I really like the automatic links - I wish other religious web logs would do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is Phil 3:20-21 not <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/col/3/20-21#20" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Col 3:20-21">Col 3:20-21</a>, by the way.  I really like the automatic links - I wish other religious web logs would do that.</p>
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